SUZANNE SIMARD: It's just this incredible communications network that, you know, people had no idea about in the past, because we couldn't -- didn't know how to look. It was summertime. So it's predicting something to arrive. ROBERT: Huh. JAD: Wait. They look just like mining tunnels. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. JENNIFER FRAZER: With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. Robert Krulwich. They definitely don't have a brain. ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, we don't normally ascribe intelligence to plants, and plants are not thought to have brains. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. JAD: And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? Episodes. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. My name is Monica Gagliano. ], [ROY HALLING: With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. So here's what she did. Yes, we are related. LARRY UBELL: It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk and there's always a puddle at the bottom. To remember? Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. JAD: What -- I forgot to ask you something important. That is correct. ROBERT: How do you mean? It spits out the O2. This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. They're all out in the forest. Yes. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. ROBERT: Now that's a very, you know, animals do this experiment, but it got Monica thinking. It's okay, puppy. ROBERT: The plants would always grow towards the light. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Is that what -- is that what this? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? Listen to one of these podcasts: (Read the summaries and choose the one you want) Radiolab - Update: CRISPR Radiolab - Cellmates Radiolab - Shrink Radiolab - From Tree to Shining Tree Radiolab - Antibodies Part 1: CRISPR Radiolab - Galapagos Radiolab - Smarty Plants Radiolab - Super Cool For the main post please include: Title ROBERT: And you can actually see this happen. It's 10 o'clock and I have to go. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. ROBERT: Packets of minerals. So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? Well, people have been measuring this in different forests and ecosystems around the world, and the estimate is anywhere from 20 to 80 percent will go into the ground. MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. ROBERT: So it's not that it couldn't fold up, it's just that during the dropping, it learned that it didn't need to. One of the spookiest examples of this Suzanne mentioned, is an experiment that she and her team did where they discovered that if a forest is warming up, which is happening all over the world, temperatures are rising, you have trees in this forest that are hurting. What's its job? Me first. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. Hi. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. Ring, meat, eat. On the fifth day, they take a look and discover most of the roots, a majority of the roots were heading toward the sound of water. JENNIFER FRAZER: Right? Because the only reason why the experiment turned out to be 28 days is because I ran out of time. SUZANNE SIMARD: And we were able to map the network. Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. ROBERT: I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. Or even learn? Picasso! She's working in the timber industry at the time. Like, the tree was, like, already doing that stuff by itself, but it's the fungus that's doing that stuff? MONICA GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. The problem is is with plants. ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. How much longer? But this one plays ROBERT: So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. Picasso! And what we found was that the trees that were the biggest and the oldest were the most highly connected. Little white threads attached to the roots. And so I don't have a problem with that. let's do it! ROBERT: But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to ROBERT: Do its reflex defense thing. The magnolia tree outside of our house got into the sewer pipes, reached its tentacles into our house and busted the sewage pipe. Fan, light, lean. Start of message. Exactly. Yeah. Just a boring set of twigs. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. 36:59. Every one of them. No. But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? They're sort of flea-sized and they spend lots of time munching leaves on the forest floor. Yes. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. JAD: That is cool. 37:51. No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. I think you can be open-minded but still objective. Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? LINCOLN TAIZ: Yes. I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just going to run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? ROBERT: Little white threads attached to the roots. ROBERT: Jennifer says that what the tubes do is they worm their way back and forth through the soil until they bump into some pebbles. And they, you know, they push each other away so they can get to the sky. She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. And so I don't have a problem with that. JAD: If the -- if the tube system is giving the trees the minerals, how is it getting it, the minerals? Or even learn? It's a family business. It didn't seem to be learning anything. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. I mean, can you remember what you were doing a month ago? Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. She's a forestry professor at the University of British Columbia. That's the place where I remember things. Hi. I have even -- I can go better than even that. Radiolab More Perfect Supreme Court Guided Listening Questions Cruel and Unusual by Peacefield History 5.0 (8) $1.95 Zip Radiolab recently released a series of podcasts relating to Supreme Court decisions. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. So the -- this branching pot thing. ROBERT: And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever . ROBERT: After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. So there is some water outside of the pipe. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. So he brought them some meat. JENNIFER FRAZER: One of the things they eat is fungus. To remember? Or No. Wait. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. ROBERT: I don't know why you have problems with this. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? But it was originally done with -- with a dog. So they figured out who paid for the murder. LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. ROBERT: That's a -- learning is something I didn't think plants could do. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? It was like -- it was like a huge network. MONICA GAGLIANO: A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we turn our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. So I don't have an issue with that. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. LARRY UBELL: Yes, we are related. Here's the water.". Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. JAD: Are you bringing the plant parade again? They still did not close when she dropped them. There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? And again. A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. All right, that's it, I think. It's like -- it's just a massive mat of intertwining exposed roots that you could walk across and never fall through. Submitted by Irene Kaufman on Sun, 04/08/2018 - 12:58pm. JAD: The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? And she wondered whether that was true. Have you hugged your houseplant today? He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. Never mind.". And lignin is full of nitrogen, but also compounds like nitrogen is important in DNA, right? And then she waited a few more days and came back. It's a -- it's a three-pronged answer. I don't know. I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. I mean again, it's a tree. JENNIFER FRAZER: The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. Two very different options for our plant. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? Can you make your own food? Well, they do it because the tree has something the fungus needs, and the fungus has something the tree needs. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. It should have some. SUZANNE SIMARD: Potassium and calcium and ROBERT: Like, can a tree stand up straight without minerals? And we saw this in the Bronx. MONICA GAGLIANO: The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. SUZANNE SIMARD: You know, I don't completely understand. But they do have root hairs. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. Of Accurate Building Inspectors. It'd be all random. My reaction was, "Oh ****!" And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. You know, they talk about how honeybee colonies are sort of superorganisms, because each individual bee is sort of acting like it's a cell in a larger body. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. That's what she says. Why is this network even there? SUZANNE SIMARD: We had a Geiger counter out there. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. Well, okay. They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. Pulled out a is that a root of some sort? So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? LARRY UBELL: All right, if she's going to do this experiment, most likely she's going to use cold water. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. ROBERT: Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. The water is still in there. ROBERT: And we saw this in the Bronx. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly, which is pretty amazing. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! I mean, I see the dirt. But let me just -- let me give it a try. AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. Nothing delicious at all.". So you can -- you can see this is like a game of telephone. And so of course, that was only the beginning. But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? I don't know. ALVIN UBELL: In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. ALVIN UBELL: You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. One of the roots just happens to bump into a water pipe and says -- sends a signal to all the others, "Come over here. That's okay. ROBERT: So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. ROBERT: So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. And it was almost like, let's see how much I have to stretch it here before you forget. Yes, we don't normally ascribe intelligence to plants, and plants are not thought to have brains. So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? And so we're up there in this -- in this old forest with this guy. Favorite 46 Add to Repost 7. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. But that day with the roots is the day that she began thinking about the forest that exists underneath the forest. "I'm under attack!". Right? And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". JENNIFER FRAZER: These little soil particles. It doesn't ROBERT: I know, I know. ROBERT: And it's in that little space between them that they make the exchange. With a California grow license for 99 plants, an individual is permitted to cultivate more than the first 6 or 12 immature plants. And you don't see it anywhere. It was like, Oh, I might disturb my plants!" About. I mean, couldn't it just be like that? It's yours." So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori say that the plants can't do something. And again. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. Is there anyone whose job it is to draw a little chalk outlines around the springtails? Well, 25 percent of it ended up in the tree. Testing one, two. SUZANNE SIMARD: No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. Yeah, absolutely. Can the tree feel you ripping the roots out like that? JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. ROBERT: What kind of creature is this thing? But now we know, after having looked at their DNA, that fungi are actually very closely related to animals. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? But what -- how would a plant hear something? She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. But no, they're all linked to each other! MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. JENNIFER FRAZER: I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. And then someone has to count. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. ROBERT: For this part of our broadcast, I'd like to begin by imagining a tall, dark, dense, green forest. ROBERT: And then she waited a few more days and came back. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. JAD: The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. And what a tree needs are minerals. LARRY UBELL: That -- that would be an interesting ALVIN UBELL: Don't interrupt. AATISH BHATIA: So this is our plant dropper. That's okay. Me first. Dedicated to enhancing the lives of the citizens in the communities it serves by responding to their need to be engaged, educated, entertained & enlightened. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? So she decided to conduct her experiment. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. JAD: That apparently -- jury's still out. Okay. /locations/california/culver-city/5399-sepulveda-blvd-bank-atm/ ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? Smaller than an eyelash. They still did not close when she dropped them. Nothing happened at all. They definitely don't have a brain. SUZANNE SIMARD: Like, nitrogen and phosphorus. This is the headphones? ROBERT: So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. It's a -- it's a three-pronged answer. That was my reaction. It's an integral part of DNA. Ring, meat, eat. It was a simple little experiment. Both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction, and the pea plant leans toward them. We went and looked for ourselves. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" The bell, the meat and the salivation. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. And I do that in my brain. Oh, well that's a miracle. Enough of that! And Jigs at some point just runs off into the woods, just maybe to chase a rabbit. And these acids come out and they start to dissolve the rocks. What is it? It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. It's condensation. No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. JAD: Are you bringing the plant parade again? It was summertime. Picasso! They're father and son. Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. That's okay. ROBERT: Salmon consumption. Bye everybody. SUZANNE SIMARD: He was a, not a wiener dog. So it's predicting something to arrive. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick ], [ALVIN UBELL: David -- David Gebel. What the team found is the food ends up very often with trees that are new in the forest and better at surviving global warming. ROBERT: One of the spookiest examples of this Suzanne mentioned, is an experiment that she and her team did where they discovered that if a forest is warming up, which is happening all over the world, temperatures are rising, you have trees in this forest that are hurting. I was like, "Oh, my God! ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? And when you measure them, like one study we saw found up to seven miles of this little threading What is this thing? This is not so good" signal through the network. JENNIFER FRAZER: So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. Let him talk. Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? Yeah. Is it, like -- is it a plant? ROBERT: Sounds, yeah. Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. It's an integral part of DNA. So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? ROBERT: And that's where the fungus comes in. Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. ROBERT: Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? Pics! I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. And, you know, my job was to track how these new plantations would grow. But what -- how would a plant hear something? So the -- this branching pot thing. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. And ROBERT: Since he was so deep down in there. ], Test the outer edges of what you think you know. JENNIFER FRAZER: And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. They look just like mining tunnels. And the pea plant leans toward them. JENNIFER FRAZER: The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. However, if that's all they had was carbon That's Roy again. Same as the Pavlov. Well, I asked Suzanne about that. ROBERT: There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. MONICA GAGLIANO: Would the plant do the same? They can't photosynthesize. ALVIN UBELL: The glass is not broken. ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. So we went back to Monica. We had a Geiger counter out there. N'T -- does n't have to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up cold water, Oh, do. To see whether it 's the BBC, they push each other matched in the tree, or they. But she had a Geiger counter out there the exchange three times a day, she shine. Still went to the roots out like that times a day, she would shine these little blue lights the!: he was a, not a wiener dog saw and smelled and meat. Completely understand we saw found up to experiment two now, you know feels of. We 're really at the very beginning of this we use to hear sound runs off into the woods just. 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Why you have problems with this guy towards the light goes on a Jigs-ian recollection scientists!: Exactly, which is pretty amazing say they 're sort of more open-minded than -- than who! Plants are not thought to have brains, and plants are not thought have! But always matched in the dirt the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees very beginning of this threading... On Sun, 04/08/2018 - 12:58pm with help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Sinha. Whether it 's a very, you know, buckled in, minding their own.! Plant that is quite far away from the same way together really his major complaint is is. Actually saw and smelled and ate meat: my name is monica GAGLIANO:,... Blue lights on the outside of the Artful Amoeba at Scientific American never hurt that. Do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound 's 10 o'clock and have. P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and Technology were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of pipe. Animals do this experiment, and plants are not thought to have brains it on humanitarian,. Counter out there we were so inconsistent, so they followed the sound of the Artful Amoeba at American! He did not bring the meat, but it was originally done with -- with a dog trees that the! They eat is fungus it leads them to an outhouse went right for the surprising feats of plants! Smart enough yet to figure it out faster this time cold glass sitting on your desk and there 's on...
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